Episode 17

Reducing the Carbon Footprint

When justifying cybersecurity investments, Andy Bates, Chief Development and Strategic Partnership Officer, Global Cyber Alliance, recommends making the business case from the standpoint of reducing the carbon footprint. He feels people will make a stronger emotional connection with the carbon reduction argument and thereby be more willing to fund and participate in cybersecurity initiatives. Changing up the cyber conversation and making it more relatable was one of the key takeaways from this discussion. Andy also talked about the vision and offerings of the non-profit organization Global Cyber Alliance.

To access and download the entire podcast summary with discussion highlights --

https://www.dchatte.com/episode-17-reducing-the-carbon-footprint/


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Transcript
Introducer:

Welcome to the Cybersecurity Readiness Podcast

Introducer:

Series with Dr. Dave Chatterjee. Dr. Chatterjee is the author of

Cybersecurity Readiness:

A Holistic and High-Performance

Cybersecurity Readiness:

approach. He has been studying cybersecurity for over a decade,

Cybersecurity Readiness:

authored and edited scholarly papers, delivered talks,

Cybersecurity Readiness:

conducted webinars, consulted with companies, and served on a

Cybersecurity Readiness:

cybersecurity SWAT team with Chief Information Security

Cybersecurity Readiness:

officers. Dr. Chatterjee is an Associate Professor of

Cybersecurity Readiness:

Management Information Systems at the Terry College of

Cybersecurity Readiness:

Business, the University of Georgia, and Visiting Professor

Cybersecurity Readiness:

at Duke University's Pratt School of Engineering.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

Hello, everyone, I'm delighted to

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

welcome you to this episode of the Cybersecurity Readiness

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

Podcast Series. Today, I'll be talking with Andy Bates, Chief

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

Development and Strategic Partnership Officer at Global

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

Cyber Alliance. Andy, welcome. It's great to have you as a

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

guest on the Cybersecurity Readiness Podcast Series. Thanks

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

for making time to share your thoughts and perspectives with

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

the listeners. How about, we get started on a reflective note

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

where you share with us what got you into cybersecurity? What's

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

your story?

Andy Bates:

Brilliant! Well, first of all, thanks for for the

Andy Bates:

opportunity. And thanks for having me here. So it's it's

Andy Bates:

great to be with you. And thanks, everyone for listening

Andy Bates:

in. And yeah, great question. I guess I've been in telecoms all

Andy Bates:

my life. So I kind of started my career as an engineer and, and

Andy Bates:

business development. So found myself building secure networks.

Andy Bates:

And I guess before the term cybersecurity was invented, I'd

Andy Bates:

probably realized I was on the receiving end of cyber attacks.

Andy Bates:

So So on the one hand, I think I'm kind of feeling the pain or

Andy Bates:

felt the pain that I want the audience not to be feeling. And

Andy Bates:

so that's one of the reasons why I kind of left the commercial

Andy Bates:

sector and came to GCA as a as a global, not- -for-profit, I

Andy Bates:

guess, to fight back. And then the then the other thing is, I'm

Andy Bates:

a great one for asking the really annoying questions like,

Andy Bates:

like, I guess the average 10 year old would do. So having

Andy Bates:

built secure networks, and been kind of part of building the

Andy Bates:

internet. And, you know, the internet's as old as I am, it

Andy Bates:

was born in 1969, I'm afraid to say and, you know, the first

Andy Bates:

email, I think, was transmitted in 1972. So it's come a long

Andy Bates:

way, the internet, we've all come a long way. And I kind of

Andy Bates:

look at things in the internet and think, surely, we can make

Andy Bates:

this safer. And as you and the listeners probably know, you

Andy Bates:

know, the Internet was originally designed for

Andy Bates:

universities and academic institute's to communicate

Andy Bates:

together. And it's a wholly different thing now. So yeah, I

Andy Bates:

look at it at the Internet as a networking engineer and go, we

Andy Bates:

could, we could make this a lot safer. And just to kind of close

Andy Bates:

out, you know, you turn on the water at home, and you can drink

Andy Bates:

water from the tap in most countries. But the internet is

Andy Bates:

kind of dangerous, you have to buy a firewall, you have to be

Andy Bates:

on your game, you have to train people. So ultimately, I'd love

Andy Bates:

the internet to be just as safe as, as the water system for want

Andy Bates:

of a better word. And, and I think we can get there maybe not

Andy Bates:

in my lifetime in my career. But yeah, that that's, that's what

Andy Bates:

gets me out of bed in the morning, I think.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

Fabulous. Yeah, we know, we all want to be

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

able to operate in a safer environment. As you know, it's

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

great to be digitized. We appreciate the convenience of

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

electronic capabilities. But now we're also having to deal with

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

the consequences of the good things that we have created. You

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

know, the last time we were chatting, you brought up a very

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

interesting perspective on cyber that I don't often hear. You

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

talked about reducing the carbon footprint, why not look at

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

cybersecurity investments from the standpoint of reducing

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

carbon footprint? Can you expand on that?

Andy Bates:

Yeah, totally. And I mean, this is not new thinking

Andy Bates:

maybe. But when I've spoken to people about it, people go,

Andy Bates:

actually that's that's a new angle. And, and I think the

Andy Bates:

first thing to say is, you know, we in GCA (Global Cyber

Andy Bates:

Alliance) and I were talking about this before the recent Cop

Andy Bates:

conference (held in Glasgow), he said there's a there's a

Andy Bates:

potential for saying that we've jumped on the bandwagon and the

Andy Bates:

zeitgeist here because everybody's talking about

Andy Bates:

carbon. But I guess first of all, you know, people watch TV,

Andy Bates:

dramas, and detective programs about fighting what are called

Andy Bates:

physical crime. But nobody gets excited about cybercrime. Nobody

Andy Bates:

gets excited about online fraud, as you say, we kind of get used

Andy Bates:

to living with it. For years, in fact, when I was at school, I

Andy Bates:

remember people talking about climate crisis, and maybe that

Andy Bates:

was kind of a quiet event. And now that's become acknowledged

Andy Bates:

and real and visceral and people get angry about carbon, but they

Andy Bates:

don't get angry about cyber. So I think that's the first thing

Andy Bates:

to say that I think all of our lives in cyber would be easier

Andy Bates:

if there was an emotional connection with the problem as

Andy Bates:

there is with murder, robbery, etc. So, so yeah, we were

Andy Bates:

looking for different angles to try and make cyber more

Andy Bates:

interesting and more able to talk to, I want to be able to

Andy Bates:

have a conversation with my mother about what I do at work.

Andy Bates:

I'm convinced my mom thinks I'm a spy or run an IT department or

Andy Bates:

those kind of things so so if we can put cyber into the modern

Andy Bates:

parlance, which, you know, you talk about in your book, I think

Andy Bates:

that's, that's an important factor. So, with that back to

Andy Bates:

the kind of carbon discussion, cybercrime and fraud on the

Andy Bates:

planet, it's hard to get accurate figures. But generally,

Andy Bates:

it's accepted that the cost of cybercrime and fraud online

Andy Bates:

crime is around a trillion dollars a year. So imagine if

Andy Bates:

there was a country out there whose GDP was a trillion

Andy Bates:

dollars, that's more than the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. In

Andy Bates:

fact, it's approximately the same as the GDP of Canada. So it

Andy Bates:

is reasonable to say, if there was a bad nation, a rogue nation

Andy Bates:

on the planet, generating subtle stealing so much money, it must

Andy Bates:

have a carbon impact. Now, the natural conversation there goes

Andy Bates:

that well, cybercriminals are using computers, they use

Andy Bates:

clouds, all of that contributes carbon. And I think that's,

Andy Bates:

that's true. But if I take a country with a GDP of a trillion

Andy Bates:

dollars, its carbon output is somewhere between 50 and 100

Andy Bates:

million tons of carbon. Now, there isn't a rogue nation

Andy Bates:

that's occupied entirely by criminals. This is their

Andy Bates:

obviously spread across the nations that exists today. So

Andy Bates:

think of the good economy, the good economy has to generate

Andy Bates:

another trillion dollars to make up for that trillion that has

Andy Bates:

been stolen by the criminals. We can't say that can be carbon

Andy Bates:

zero, doing that replacement, economic activity has to

Andy Bates:

generate carbon, and arguably, there's a number of 50 million

Andy Bates:

tons there. GCA, ourselves, people, good people investing

Andy Bates:

$25 million to keep GCA up so that we can go find cybercrime,

Andy Bates:

we think we've saved a little bit of research around a billion

Andy Bates:

dollars of online crime in the past five years, you rolled that

Andy Bates:

back using the same kind of formulas, we think that would be

Andy Bates:

around 100,000 tonnes of carbon. So that's, that's going to be a

Andy Bates:

good conversation. So that's, that was really the starting

Andy Bates:

discussion. So you know, some very vague maths there, but I

Andy Bates:

think the point is, as you say, opens up a different

Andy Bates:

conversation, rather than just hey, you should change your

Andy Bates:

passwords, you should buy a firewall, you should train your

Andy Bates:

staff, which I think a lot of people have been saying for some

Andy Bates:

time. Not a lot of people have been listening. But But yeah,

Andy Bates:

that's the starting point.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

You know, that's probably a very good way

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

of looking at the impact of cyber, it goes beyond what we

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

generally quantify in terms of financial losses, losses to

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

individuals, and they are all very valid, and we got to

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

address those. But in the bigger scheme of things, how

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

cybersecurity attacks are hurting the environment, whether

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

it's attacks on the infrastructure, and then you,

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

you gave it a different spin we talked about, we are generating

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

good carbon to deal with the bad carbon. Yeah.

Andy Bates:

So let me just to give you a bit of a COVID

Andy Bates:

analogy. So without naming the names of any vaccine

Andy Bates:

organizations, clearly generating a billion COVID COVID

Andy Bates:

vaccines is a good thing. But clearly, that generates carbon.

Andy Bates:

So there's a use of carbon that I think we'd all be happy with.

Andy Bates:

So the inverse is clearly if we're allowing people to steal a

Andy Bates:

trillion dollars, those people a) generate carbon in the

Andy Bates:

process, but I think more importantly, it's, it's that

Andy Bates:

theft that we created something in if you like, the good

Andy Bates:

economy, we've got to create another one to to catch up. And

Andy Bates:

that's really the the net contribution of carbon.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

So if I understand you correctly, when

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

organizations are trying to justify investments in

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

cybersecurity, and there are methods and measures, this

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

should be another dimension to their business case, correct.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

That total, go ahead.

Andy Bates:

So yeah, totally. Um, so yeah, the risk of drawing

Andy Bates:

an X, Y and Zed axis, I think we can all understand reasonably

Andy Bates:

how to monetize costs of cyber cyber defense, monetizing the

Andy Bates:

cost of the consequences are harder. There's obviously

Andy Bates:

emotional, and if you like human consequences, I think we heard

Andy Bates:

of several people who committed suicide because of constant

Andy Bates:

phishing emails and attacks. Clearly those those folks

Andy Bates:

weren't in a great mental state to start with. But yeah, if we

Andy Bates:

roll the carbon conversation in as well, it gives another

Andy Bates:

dimension to that business case. So to give you an example of a

Andy Bates:

bank I was speaking to recently, obviously, being safe is part of

Andy Bates:

a bank's business. And again, as you say, in your book, making

Andy Bates:

cyber part of the cost to do business is important. So

Andy Bates:

they've grasped that and, and banks, I think get cyber, you

Andy Bates:

know, they used to have safes to put money in gold in now they

Andy Bates:

have the equivalent of online safes to keep themselves safe.

Andy Bates:

But if you asked what the bank strategy was number two in there

Andy Bates:

is carbon reduction. So this particular IT team and said they

Andy Bates:

wanted to reduce their attack surface, loads of firewalls,

Andy Bates:

loads of pin holes into the environment, API's, those kind

Andy Bates:

of things. And being a bank, they had their own servers and

Andy Bates:

their own processes. During that, they were struggling to

Andy Bates:

find the case to remove that infrastructure, that legacy

Andy Bates:

infrastructure and move forward to arguably a more safe

Andy Bates:

position. When they, we had this conversation and it was just a

Andy Bates:

two sentence chat from a webinar not dissimilar to this one I was

Andy Bates:

doing and they said, Wait, if we add up all the carbon that all

Andy Bates:

those servers are producing, and our banks number two thing in

Andy Bates:

its strategy is carbon reduction, suddenly, we've got a

Andy Bates:

different angle to drive that business case. And frankly, you

Andy Bates:

know, that what's I think cool, charismatic carbon. So the more

Andy Bates:

interesting ways of reducing carbon, the carbon trading is at

Andy Bates:

50 pounds a ton for that more interesting version of carbon.

Andy Bates:

50 pounds isn't a lot, but and a ton of carbon is similar. But as

Andy Bates:

I say, if the GCA we if we believe we would have saved

Andy Bates:

100,000 tons of carbon 50 pounds a ton, that's 5 million. That's

Andy Bates:

actually the cost to keep GCA running on a per annum basis. So

Andy Bates:

you know, everything counts in large amounts. I think that was

Andy Bates:

a, that was one of the rare test cases that I've worked on so far

Andy Bates:

that allowed an organization to say, this business case now

Andy Bates:

makes more sense if I put the conversation of carbon in there.

Andy Bates:

And it was less about the money, it was more about the fact that

Andy Bates:

the strategy that the CEO of that bank stands on stage with

Andy Bates:

his shareholders and says, this year, we're going to do these

Andy Bates:

three things. And thing number two was reduce our carbon

Andy Bates:

output. And that's that drives shareholder value that drives

Andy Bates:

customer commitment, and all of that can ultimately be

Andy Bates:

monetized.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

Absolutely, that's a great way of also

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

showcasing that the organization is environmentally conscious,

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

environmentally responsible. And that's always a great thing.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

Now, along those lines, Andy, as you know that it is the small

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

and the medium sized enterprises, who are always

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

struggling for resources, and maybe this carbon reduction

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

impact argument that might help their case, but still they could

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

do with help. And I know that you are involved with the Global

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

Cyber Alliance. So I thought this might be a good opportunity

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

for you to share with the listeners, what the organization

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

does, and how, you know how other organizations can benefit

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

from their offerings?

Andy Bates:

Yeah, absolutely. So, first of all, one of the

Andy Bates:

fundamental principles of GCA is that we democratize

Andy Bates:

cybersecurity. And by that we mean that our belief is that

Andy Bates:

everybody whether an individual or business has the rights and

Andy Bates:

the access to good cyber defense. In other words, it's

Andy Bates:

not just something that's the the reserve of big businesses,

Andy Bates:

rich people, clever people, and a bit like, without overly

Andy Bates:

quoting the current global pandemic, once everybody has

Andy Bates:

access to good health care, then the whole planet is a lot safer.

Andy Bates:

So it's, it's that kind of position. So GCA has two things.

Andy Bates:

We have our Capacity and Resilience Program. Today that's

Andy Bates:

very much focused on producing toolkits. So we produce free

Andy Bates:

toolkits which are available for businesses, soon to be for

Andy Bates:

individuals, for journalists, and for election officials. So

Andy Bates:

that helps people to protect freedom of speech, protect

Andy Bates:

democracy, but also stay safe online. So, you know, the debate

Andy Bates:

around a free thing, what value does it have? We nominally think

Andy Bates:

the value of the toolkit is around $3,000 3000 pounds per

Andy Bates:

small business, clearly, depending on on how much of

Andy Bates:

those things they use. So yeah, there's there's a free resource.

Andy Bates:

So I think, you know, part of today's conversation is about

Andy Bates:

business case, part is about carbon. So I feel for the small

Andy Bates:

business, you know, the local pub and chip shop in my in my

Andy Bates:

village, can't maybe afford high-end cyber defense, they

Andy Bates:

certainly can't afford to employ a CISO (Chief Information

Andy Bates:

Security Officer). So some free solutions is a good way of

Andy Bates:

starting that conversation and moving that chapter forward. As

Andy Bates:

you'd say the other part of GCA we have a thing called the IT

Andy Bates:

program, internet integrity, they really develop solutions,

Andy Bates:

which as I said in my kind of personal introduction and

Andy Bates:

check-in help the internet itself to be safer. So we have a

Andy Bates:

large IoT honeypot, we have a platform called Domain Trust.

Andy Bates:

And we we co-created with IBM and PCH a platform called Quad9.

Andy Bates:

So guess to come back to the carbon discussion, Quad9 is a

Andy Bates:

protective DNS platform. So point your DNS to 9.9.9.9. and

Andy Bates:

you will be safer, you will have another layer of defense. When

Andy Bates:

we did some testing in our pilot user base, which was a million

Andy Bates:

users. Today, Quad9 protects around 250 million users. But we

Andy Bates:

found out that your virus scanner, the load went down by

Andy Bates:

88 0%. So that's great, because clearly the thing is working,

Andy Bates:

it's stopping inbound attacks happening. But again, just let's

Andy Bates:

think of on a on a business angle. If I say to anybody in

Andy Bates:

the street, would you like your computer to run faster? The

Andy Bates:

answer is of course going to be yes. So if you get an 80% less

Andy Bates:

viruses and spam and all kinds of nonsense coming from the

Andy Bates:

Internet into your computer, it's doing less, that's good

Andy Bates:

because your computer runs faster. But maybe it uses less

Andy Bates:

electricity yet to run some numbers around that. But again,

Andy Bates:

I think that's a good way of of making cyber a different

Andy Bates:

conversation and a different business case. You know, let's

Andy Bates:

face it, cyber is a big, geeky, the word cyber probably wasn't

Andy Bates:

known as an industry, as I said about 10 years ago. Whereas

Andy Bates:

people do want their emails to be delivered better. People

Andy Bates:

don't want things to go into junk folders, people do want

Andy Bates:

their computers to run faster, people do want to pay a cheaper

Andy Bates:

electricity bill. And if cyber can help them to get to all of

Andy Bates:

those points, then it becomes more interesting and more

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

I absolutely couldn't agree with

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

engaging.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

you more. In fact, the more I hear what you say about reducing

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

the carbon footprint, I feel that that's the kind of pitch

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

that's gonna go very well with the non technical folks, with

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

the business folks, the leadership, because everyone

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

wants to do their share for the overall environment. We are I

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

would like to believe on a optimistic note that we are

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

becoming environmentally more conscious.

Andy Bates:

you've got it. And I think one of the things you say

Andy Bates:

in your book, one of your key points is that cyber is a team

Andy Bates:

sport. I'm not sure you quite say like that. But cyber

Andy Bates:

involves everybody. Carbon, by definition involves everybody,

Andy Bates:

we all breathe it out, breathe the atmosphere, we all live on

Andy Bates:

the same planet. So unless you move to the moon, there's no way

Andy Bates:

out to the carbon conversation. But the problem with cyber is,

Andy Bates:

it's kind of the job of the CISO. Like, he's got, he's got

Andy Bates:

cyber, I'll carry on doing the business, I'm the Sales VP, I am

Andy Bates:

the operations VP, cyber is in the corner over there. And you

Andy Bates:

know, we find this as the as the Global Cyber Alliance, we get

Andy Bates:

introduced to CISOs. Whereas actually, if the banks we work

Andy Bates:

with probably the CMO is the person we most like to talk to,

Andy Bates:

because we want to give free stuff to their customers, which

Andy Bates:

makes them safer, which is a great marketing conversation. So

Andy Bates:

yeah, I think you've hit on it beautifully that you cannot

Andy Bates:

check out the cop conversation. People do mentally check out the

Andy Bates:

the cyber conversation, because it is not cool, it's not

Andy Bates:

interesting, a bit techie, it's not their specialism. So So

Andy Bates:

again, I think you're right, this is this is a way of joining

Andy Bates:

the two things into the same sentence.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

And, you know, along those lines, and I

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

think you mentioned you kind of mentioned that in one of our

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

earlier conversations, you said, you know, can we turn cyber into

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

a profit center, or a strategic part of the business where we

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

are, we're approaching cybersecurity investments from

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

the standpoint of reducing carbon footprint, and that is

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

considered to be a good strategic objective that aligns

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

with the other goals and missions of the organization.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

Can you expand on that?

Andy Bates:

Yeah, totally. I mean, I'm, most people who are

Andy Bates:

in the world of sales that can have trusted advisor sales

Andy Bates:

conversation is the best place to be. So not everybody can do

Andy Bates:

this. Not every company can do this. But asking your customer

Andy Bates:

what their big concerns are about you as an organization or

Andy Bates:

generally is a very powerful question. So walking up to your

Andy Bates:

biggest customer with your sales guy and your sales VP, but

Andy Bates:

bringing the CISO going, hey, I brought my CISO along, we want

Andy Bates:

to have an open discussion about cyber. Everybody in the world of

Andy Bates:

cyber, like you and me is always talking about supply chain.

Andy Bates:

Somehow supply chain is always thought of people who supply

Andy Bates:

you. Whereas I want to call it a supply circle. Everybody

Andy Bates:

supplies everybody with something, nobody is at the top

Andy Bates:

of the supply food chain. Nobody is at the bottom, the smallest

Andy Bates:

company buys electricity, buys gas buys insurance, the biggest

Andy Bates:

bank etc, buys things from those people. But the biggest company

Andy Bates:

sells things to to someone else to small people. So everybody's

Andy Bates:

a supplier, everybody's therefore a buyer. And we always

Andy Bates:

say the problem is in the supply chain. So I'll go and get my

Andy Bates:

procurement department to go beat up on the supply chain to

Andy Bates:

make them more cybersafe. If you make that the salespersons job

Andy Bates:

to go into your customers, that's a powerful thing. Because

Andy Bates:

you're opening up a different conversation. Somebody who walks

Andy Bates:

up and says, Hello, I've got some products in this place.

Andy Bates:

That's that's a very basic sales conversation. People would

Andy Bates:

rather talk about how do I solve your problems, Mr. Mrs.

Andy Bates:

Customer? And cyber is a problem. Yeah. So if you're

Andy Bates:

CISOs got an angle on helping to solve your customers problems,

Andy Bates:

it's a powerful conversation. And guess what their procurement

Andy Bates:

person is probably about to beat up on you because they've gone

Andy Bates:

to Cyber Conference where we've all said the supply chain is

Andy Bates:

where the problem is. So I think, just like the carbon

Andy Bates:

thing, it opens up a different conversation, opening up

Andy Bates:

different conversations, drive sales conversations, I'll maybe

Andy Bates:

don't want to make cyber competitive advantage. But let's

Andy Bates:

think of telco for a second. You know, my my kind of home stable.

Andy Bates:

And I'll ask you this question. If you don't mind, Dave, and I

Andy Bates:

appreciate you asking questions. But would you pay 10 or 20% more

Andy Bates:

for your home internet provider, if they assured you that it was

Andy Bates:

90% safer? Absolutely. I would. Kind of no brainer question,

Andy Bates:

isn't it so straight away. So what's called in the telecom

Andy Bates:

sector, ARPU, average revenue per user per month. If you knew

Andy Bates:

you were going to get less scams or just just get less phishing.

Andy Bates:

I mean, I think isn't 30% of all emails scam phishing stuff. So

Andy Bates:

you just buying a rubbish product, you know, if I bought

Andy Bates:

one of the popular fizzy drink brands and one in three cans of

Andy Bates:

the fizzy drink that I won't mention has gone off or is

Andy Bates:

faulty or leaks, I'd be super annoyed. But with the internet,

Andy Bates:

I'm kind of it's just how it is, it's back to my point about

Andy Bates:

about the water analogy. So telcos an easy way to look at

Andy Bates:

that you could probably charge more for massive firewall in the

Andy Bates:

internet, that just means you're safer. I can hear lawyers on the

Andy Bates:

call getting angst about this, or what about liability? What

Andy Bates:

about blah, blah, blah. But again, my my opener, and it

Andy Bates:

comes back to the carbon conversation is very much the

Andy Bates:

internet, it's all about the problem is yours. It's never the

Andy Bates:

industries, it's an, you know, your book beautifully touches on

Andy Bates:

some of the points which people should do, my passionate belief

Andy Bates:

is that they should do those things. But it shouldn't be the

Andy Bates:

only line of defense somebody should be be helping these

Andy Bates:

folks. So I think that's that for telco is one example of how

Andy Bates:

cyber can become a sales differentiator. But let's think

Andy Bates:

of other things, you know, if I don't know if if the Wi Fi in

Andy Bates:

your local restaurant guarantees that you're going to be safer

Andy Bates:

versus the coffee shop across the road and everything else

Andy Bates:

neutral, you're going to make an informed decision to go to the

Andy Bates:

safer environment. So I think there are a whole load of

Andy Bates:

conversations there where cyber can become more mainstream in

Andy Bates:

the business. And again, you know, you said this, this in the

Andy Bates:

book that cyber needs to be everybody's thing. And I think

Andy Bates:

these kinds of conversations are a way of making it everybody's

Andy Bates:

thing, rather than saying everybody should do cyber, it

Andy Bates:

means everybody shouldn't click on this link, everybody should

Andy Bates:

update their software. And that's good advice. But the kind

Andy Bates:

of sales conversations allows people to embrace it a lot more.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

You know, it's, it's so true, what you

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

just said. Often, it's how you pitch things. You know, like

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

somebody said that, you know, don't approach the cybersecurity

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

conversation, or the cybersecurity communication,

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

from the standpoint of getting people fearful about it,

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

approach it in a very positive way. You know, tell them what

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

they could do and keep it simple have, you know, conversation

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

should not be complicated. You know, I'm a huge believer that

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

despite the complexity of anything, there has to be a

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

simple, easy way of getting the key messages across, you don't

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

need to, don't need to get the the recipient of the message, to

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

understand the intricate details. You know, give it to

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

them at a level that they can relate to give it to them in a

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

manner that really strikes a chord with them. That that

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

requires some deliberate thinking, you know, I have

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

mentioned in the book that we can't afford this check-the-box

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

approach, yes, here are these requirements, we are meeting

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

them we are, we've hired this particular vendor who's giving

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

us this training, we are following through with these

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

kinds of communications, they're all good guidelines, but you

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

have to personalize it, you have to customize it, you have to

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

recognize the company culture, and you know, this approach,

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

the, you know, reducing the carbon footprint approach, this

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

could be a way of changing the information security culture,

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

making it a more integral part of the overall organizational

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

culture, that's when I think organizations are likely to see

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

greater benefits over a sustained period of time, as

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

opposed to making it an information security function

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

thing, as opposed to making it their problem, I'm in the

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

business to grow revenue, it is somebody else's problem, to deal

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

with security, that kind of myopic approach, a siloed

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

approach doesn't help anybody and you put it beautifully. You

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

know, we come from carbon, if I may. Yeah. And, and carbon

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

connects us and you know, the, the pandemic is emphasizing that

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

and that as much as we would like to do our own thing and

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

like to operate independently and be profit centers and

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

showcase how how much better we are than the others; at a much

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

deeper and a much higher level, you know, everybody's future is

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

connected in a very deep way. And we have to recognize that

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

and show the responsibility. So we help us by helping others. So

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

that's the that's the approach, that's the mindset that needs to

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

go into the cybersecurity conversation to prevent it from

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

becoming a technical conversation, which results in

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

people tuning off. You know what, it's not my thing.

Andy Bates:

Exactly. I mean, a couple of things to pick up from

Andy Bates:

what you said and I think I'm probably quoting Ian levy from

Andy Bates:

from NTSC but when you teach your kids to cross the road, you

Andy Bates:

teach them to look left look right, look left again or the

Andy Bates:

other way around. If you're in the USA, you don't teach them

Andy Bates:

how the internal combustion engine works or kinetic

Andy Bates:

collision theory. But often the way people teach languages and

Andy Bates:

the people teach sciences, you got to go with that. So exactly

Andy Bates:

as you said, the the information that's relevant to people is so

Andy Bates:

important. And again, at the risk of quoting, I think it's

Andy Bates:

Dale Carnegie, who said, If you want somebody to be interested

Andy Bates:

in you, it'll probably take two years, there's nothing better

Andy Bates:

people really love people talking about them. So if you

Andy Bates:

want somebody to be interested in you, you got to talk to them

Andy Bates:

about what they're interested in, then it will take them two

Andy Bates:

months to have, you know, the conversation, a deeper

Andy Bates:

conversation, I guess so. So the point that that really is, if I

Andy Bates:

draw a Venn diagram of people who are interested in cyber, and

Andy Bates:

then a bigger Venn Diagram of people who are interested in

Andy Bates:

computers, and then a much bigger circle of people

Andy Bates:

interested in carbon and the planet, by virtue of human

Andy Bates:

survival, we're all nominally interested in carbon on the

Andy Bates:

planet. So if that's just if we're just using carbon as a

Andy Bates:

different way of introducing cyber into what other people are

Andy Bates:

interested in, then it means more people will be interested

Andy Bates:

in us, ie the cyber geeks, and therefore they do something

Andy Bates:

about it. And there's loads of other subjects that people would

Andy Bates:

would be interested in. I mean, one of my, the main part of my

Andy Bates:

job is finding the funding to ngca. People will fund

Andy Bates:

education, people will fund carbon people, fund veterans,

Andy Bates:

people don't fund cyber, because that's the job of police surely,

Andy Bates:

and that's why I pay my tax. So why the heck are you asking me

Andy Bates:

for money. So again, back to the Dale Carnegie quote, if you're

Andy Bates:

interested in other people they become interested in you trying

Andy Bates:

to force them to become interested in you is arguably

Andy Bates:

takes 10 times the amount of time and effort. And in cyber,

Andy Bates:

we just don't have that amount of time and effort just to throw

Andy Bates:

around. So it's much better to find things people are

Andy Bates:

interested in and, and carbon is a thing that almost everybody is

Andy Bates:

becoming interested in or needs to become interested in.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

You know, this reminds me of a

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

conversation I had with a senior executive and I started my my

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

career in corporate. I was a management trainee in this major

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

British multinational, and as part of our training program, we

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

had to meet with the company director. So when I walked into

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

his office, he of course, asked me how I was doing how I was

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

liking the environment, and then he gave me some advice. And

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

something that stayed with me was when he said, "Dave I am not

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

asking you to be committed to the organization to be loyal to

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

the organization, I'm asking you to be loyal to yourself to be

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

loyal to your family, and believe me, if you do that, you

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

will be loyal to the organization." I never quite

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

understood that then. But when you use the Dale Carnegie

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

example, you kind of made the same point that make it about

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

the person make it about their contribution to the world, you

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

know, their legacy, what is my legacy, my legacy is more than

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

the job that I do, my legacy is how I contribute to make the

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

world a better a safer place. And this carbon reduction carbon

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

emission angle, is a great way of getting there. And so I

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

think, you know, your approach to this subject on cyber is, is

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

a welcome approach. And I'd like to probe further about

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

justifying cyber investments. You mentioned, you made a, you

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

know, telling statement that nobody wants to fund cyber, but

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

they want to fund a lot of other things. What recommendations,

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

what guidance would you like to give to listeners who are maybe

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

who are, you know, pitching for money for cyber investments or

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

organizations who are trying to get funding for cyber

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

investments? What guidance would you give them? What

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

recommendations do you have for them?

Andy Bates:

I mean, great question. And to me, that falls

Andy Bates:

into two questions. So I think there's the CISO in the

Andy Bates:

corporate who wants to get more investment for the corporate.

Andy Bates:

And then there's people like me in the not-for-profit world who

Andy Bates:

are looking to foundations, grant funders, etc. So I guess

Andy Bates:

the first part is probably most relevant to your audience, your

Andy Bates:

listeners. I mean, I think anybody who's making a pitch for

Andy Bates:

money, stakeholder management is super important. And I've had

Andy Bates:

lots of conversations. And we've done talks on how the CISO is

Andy Bates:

engaged with the Board. So again, I think getting a Board

Andy Bates:

level sponsor who's not the IT director who's not maybe the CFO

Andy Bates:

is a good way forward. We've touched on it already. But when

Andy Bates:

I was, it feels like a million years ago now when my job was a

Andy Bates:

chief engineer, and I ran a design team, going out with the

Andy Bates:

sales VP to talk to customers was powerful for them and

Andy Bates:

powerful for us. We knew what the customers wanted to do. The

Andy Bates:

sales VP loved bringing out somebody from a design

Andy Bates:

department to go in and just be interested in them. So I think

Andy Bates:

just to reiterate the point we made earlier that the CISO

Andy Bates:

becoming friends with the sales VP, and the sales VP as the one

Andy Bates:

who drives the engine of growth of most commercial businesses,

Andy Bates:

gets you an insider stakeholder there. Just meeting with the

Andy Bates:

Board and hoping that they're going to give you an infinite

Andy Bates:

amount of money is crazy. And as you said, anything that's put in

Andy Bates:

common sense language for anybody so that all of the Board

Andy Bates:

can understand the conversation has to be the way forward,

Andy Bates:

having big, geeky technical conversations about things is

Andy Bates:

super difficult. And let's face it, you don't know if a cyber

Andy Bates:

attack is going to happen, you don't know how much is going to

Andy Bates:

be stolen, you don't know the consequences. You also don't

Andy Bates:

know the carbon consequences of rebuilding something. But I

Andy Bates:

would say that putting carbon in a business case, and also

Andy Bates:

putting the human consequences in a business case. So the below

Andy Bates:

the line things, the bit that the CFO probably won't look at,

Andy Bates:

I think those are powerful ways of grabbing people's attention.

Andy Bates:

Most Boards are going to review hundreds of business cases and

Andy Bates:

loads of ideas, many of which they may seem crazy along rocks

Andy Bates:

the CISO so so you're you the CISO one of those many people in

Andy Bates:

that conversation. So anything you can do to make your business

Andy Bates:

case relevant to everybody on the Board, show that how you're

Andy Bates:

driving business on the Board, make it simple, but also make it

Andy Bates:

stand out. And if carbon and the emotional effects of cyber one

Andy Bates:

of the ways of making people just stop on page three and go,

Andy Bates:

wait, I'm gonna read this again, this is this has grabbed my

Andy Bates:

attention, then then that would be my my recommendation. And as

Andy Bates:

I say with that with the bank, we mentioned who we shall not

Andy Bates:

name, one of their key corporate strategies is carbon. Every

Andy Bates:

company's declared what their one, two and three corporate

Andy Bates:

strategy things are. I'm doubting cybers in there, unless

Andy Bates:

they're for cyber organization, in which case, it's probably

Andy Bates:

let's do more cyber. Yeah. So finding out what those

Andy Bates:

strategies are mapping your business case to align with

Andy Bates:

those things just makes makes complete common sense.

Andy Bates:

Not-for-profit world, yeah, if I was talking to a high net worth

Andy Bates:

individual or talking to foundation, they love education,

Andy Bates:

they love making sure that diversity is is respected and

Andy Bates:

improved across all forms of diversity, whether gender, race,

Andy Bates:

creed, neurodiversity, all super important. People care about

Andy Bates:

those things. So again, with one of our funders, he wasn't so

Andy Bates:

interested in cyber, but he was interested in democracy

Andy Bates:

interested in freedom of speech. So we built a toolkit with him

Andy Bates:

with his funding and support for journalists. Because if a

Andy Bates:

journalist gets hacked, and they've got, let's say, 10

Andy Bates:

million followers, that's a lot of people who are going to be

Andy Bates:

influenced in a in a big way. So again, that goes back to, again,

Andy Bates:

the Dale Carnegie quote, this particular funder was interested

Andy Bates:

in these things, I could have spent two years trying to get

Andy Bates:

him interested in cyber, much better for us to be interested

Andy Bates:

in democracy and interested in freedom of speech, and then see

Andy Bates:

how cyber fits into that. It'll be like we said, at the start of

Andy Bates:

this call, you know, I'd love to make the internet as safe as the

Andy Bates:

water industry as safe as the electricity industry, maybe. But

Andy Bates:

that's, that's going to take quite a while. That's, that's my

Andy Bates:

passion. But why would anybody be interested in the safety of

Andy Bates:

water or the safety of electricity, it's kind of just

Andy Bates:

there. So cyber is a utility, it's a kind of telco, it's an

Andy Bates:

internet service. So it's not fun, it's not exciting. So

Andy Bates:

you're much better to engage in what they're already excited

Andy Bates:

about. And those things need the utilities of electricity, water,

Andy Bates:

gas, cyber, we're just one of those things, and we therefore

Andy Bates:

got to make it make it relevant.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

True, so true. When I hear you talk about

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

justifying cybersecurity investments, at a more

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

fundamental level, I'm reminded of some work I did with a

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

company many years ago, the company was in the energy

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

sector, they had this business case process in place, where you

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

had to justify a strategic investment over a certain dollar

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

amount, by linking it to at least one of their four value

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

propositions. If you could not make a compelling argument on

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

how the proposed initiatives directly or indirectly impacted

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

those value propositions, the chances of getting funding

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

significantly diminished. As I reflect on our discussion, I

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

believe carbon reduction should become one of the value

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

propositions for every company. When reducing the carbon

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

footprint becomes one of the key selection criteria, the process

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

automatically ensures that every initiative and organization

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

pursues has a direct or indirect impact on reducing the carbon

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

footprint. Yeah,

Andy Bates:

no, totally agree. And and I think you've got it in

Andy Bates:

one, but to expand on it some more. So there's going to be two

Andy Bates:

types of companies on that the type of company where one of its

Andy Bates:

three big strategies is to reduce carbon. So it's a no

Andy Bates:

brainer, as you say, if a business case doesn't have that

Andy Bates:

in there, why would anybody look at the business case it falls at

Andy Bates:

the first gate, therefore If you're a CISO, or you're

Andy Bates:

pitching for some IT project that involves cyber or your

Andy Bates:

cyber sales organization, you're dumb not to include that in

Andy Bates:

there. If your company that you work for or you're selling to,

Andy Bates:

doesn't have cyber in its top three priorities, kind a

Andy Bates:

surprise, but actually back to the point to make to make one of

Andy Bates:

100 business cases jump off the page and jump out and grab

Andy Bates:

somebody by the throat and go, Yeah, I've got this emotional

Andy Bates:

connection with this thing. Why not put carbon in even if it's

Andy Bates:

not monetizable, so it doesn't add up to the dollars cents

Andy Bates:

pounds and pence in the in the balance sheet that's in your

Andy Bates:

business proposal, if it's in the words that go and by the

Andy Bates:

way, a net benefit of this is dot, dot dot. I mean, in the UK,

Andy Bates:

since, since the new year, I've seen two adverts on primetime TV

Andy Bates:

for kind of pensions, investment things and they say, put your

Andy Bates:

money with us. And these are some of the things we are doing.

Andy Bates:

And it's got brilliant pictures of people blowing up coal fired

Andy Bates:

power stations, building solar panel things, etc. So people are

Andy Bates:

starting to build this whole thing into their sales messaging

Andy Bates:

to say, bring your money to me because I'm caring for the

Andy Bates:

planet. So people are desperate to get these these messages in

Andy Bates:

there. And the point of reality, you know, if I were talking to

Andy Bates:

CFOs, on the planet is the whole carbon trading industry, the

Andy Bates:

whole carbon offset industry is running out of road, you know,

Andy Bates:

there's only a finite number of trees you can plant and the more

Andy Bates:

trees you plant, okay, solve the carbon problem today, but it

Andy Bates:

probably moves the problem to our children and our

Andy Bates:

grandchildren. Big data center providers now are looking at

Andy Bates:

putting data providers under the ocean as a way of going carbon

Andy Bates:

neutral carbon negative for that, for that cooling. So

Andy Bates:

people are doing really big innovative thinking in terms of

Andy Bates:

really big investments, I mean, putting a data center for one of

Andy Bates:

the four big cloud providers under the ocean is a non trivial

Andy Bates:

conversation, they can have quite hostile environment. So

Andy Bates:

going back to one of my openers, cybercrime is a trillion dollar

Andy Bates:

thing. If I go to the, if it were a country, it would be in

Andy Bates:

the G 20, if not in the G7. G 20, G7 world leaders talk about

Andy Bates:

these big things. trillion dollar is an eye watering amount

Andy Bates:

of money. In fact, of the top tech companies on the planet,

Andy Bates:

they've only recently burst through the trillion dollar

Andy Bates:

valuation thing. They don't have the revenues of a trillion

Andy Bates:

dollars. So anything that big, economically in terms of you

Andy Bates:

know, global macro economic scale, must have must be a big

Andy Bates:

conversation. So if people like the big data providers are

Andy Bates:

having really big billion dollar conversations to reduce carbon,

Andy Bates:

then surely the cyber angle, the cyber carbon angle must be a

Andy Bates:

conversation that today we're missing. In other words, people

Andy Bates:

need new ideas in this space, and therefore we're prepared to

Andy Bates:

pay for those ideas or give people their intellectual

Andy Bates:

capital give people their time. Because, yeah, you know, I get

Andy Bates:

back to the point that, although I'm in the cyber industry, we're

Andy Bates:

both in the cyber industry, it's not that engaging, it can be a

Andy Bates:

bit boring, saying change your passwords by a firewall,

Andy Bates:

everybody should be engaged, we should all train our staff. Some

Andy Bates:

of those things have been repeated quite a bit. Therefore,

Andy Bates:

cyber needs a new conversation. But also, the carbon reduction

Andy Bates:

conversation needs new ideas, because people are desperate.

Andy Bates:

And and we've proved with a recent Cop conference that

Andy Bates:

people aren't doing enough to solve the carbon problem. So

Andy Bates:

therefore, a trillion dollar industry for want of a better

Andy Bates:

word, there must be some solution in there. And I don't

Andy Bates:

have all the answers. We just at the start of this journey. I'm

Andy Bates:

just at the start of this journey. We kicked about with

Andy Bates:

some students, which we worked with from NCSC in the UK over

Andy Bates:

the summer, we just ran some numbers, and we thought, hey,

Andy Bates:

there's something in here.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

That absolutely I think there's a lot

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

in there. And we need to change the conversation or reconfigure

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

the conversation, talking about reconfiguring the conversation,

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

it brings back memories, and I've been a business school

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

professor for over two decades. And I've seen how the business

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

media, they are great at changing the labels to draw

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

attention to certain phenomenon. For instance, you probably have

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

heard this business process reengineering was a huge

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

buzzword for a long period of time. That has evolved to now

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

what we call business process management, I teach I happen to

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

teach a class in that area, then E business e commerce even that

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

that area has gone through evolution from the standpoint of

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

labeling from the standpoint of scoping the field, what what it

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

entails what it doesn't. So it helps to refresh the discussion.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

You know, come at it with a new pair of eyes or with a different

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

kind of a mindset. And so I think I really like this

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

approach of looking at cybersecurity investments

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

looking at the importance of securing the organization from

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

the standpoint of reducing carbon footprint, it gives it a

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

bigger appeal, it makes it environmentally more conscious.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

So that conversation takes on a different tone and a hue, if I

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

may. Well, as, unfortunately, all good things have to come to

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

an end, this episode is also coming to an end. But I'd like

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

to give you an opportunity to wrap this up with some final

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

thoughts with some summaries, whatever you want.

Andy Bates:

I mean, so again, thanks. Thanks for the time.

Andy Bates:

Brilliant conversation. So really to say is, it's early

Andy Bates:

days. So this is a thought we've kind of had in 2021 2022. So

Andy Bates:

hopefully, we can report back in and you can follow the GCA and

Andy Bates:

see how things are going. I think, for me, you've hit on a

Andy Bates:

good point there. I think the word cyber is probably 10 years

Andy Bates:

old. So as you say, relabeling some things or rebooting, I

Andy Bates:

think various films that were out 20 years ago just just been

Andy Bates:

remade. So I'm not suggesting we call it cyber 2.0. But But yes,

Andy Bates:

when when the thing has existed for 10 years, we need to up the

Andy Bates:

excitement, we need to up the engagement. And I think one of

Andy Bates:

the things you've talked about his key message for the regular

Andy Bates:

folks, and I don't think we have enough of those. So I think if

Andy Bates:

there was one key message for the regular folks is that

Andy Bates:

everybody is part of somebody's supply chain, and cyber matters

Andy Bates:

to everybody. And if if we acknowledge that we're not

Andy Bates:

everybody's not just a buyer or something, they're also a seller

Andy Bates:

or something. And we can put cyber into the sales

Andy Bates:

conversation, they get cyber more mainstream in the business,

Andy Bates:

which we all acknowledge it needs to be. And the closing

Andy Bates:

point of that is, yeah, as we said, there's, there's no escape

Andy Bates:

room for carbon. Unless we all go to the moon, or one of the

Andy Bates:

famous billionaires manages to build a rocket and completely

Andy Bates:

leave the planet, leaving a whole lot of carbon behind us,

Andy Bates:

he does it. And we're kind of stuck on this planet. And we all

Andy Bates:

love it. So we're all in this together. And the more we can

Andy Bates:

use that conversation, to realize that we're actually all

Andy Bates:

in it together with cyber and cyber is stealing a trillion

Andy Bates:

from our planet's economy every year. tying those two together

Andy Bates:

to get as emotionally connected with both of those problems has

Andy Bates:

to be a good thing. So So hopefully, that's been useful.

Andy Bates:

But again, we'll keep the conversation going elsewhere and

Andy Bates:

hopefully report back in and see how we can drive that forward.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

Well, thank you very much, Andy, for your

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

time. This was truly a great conversation.

Andy Bates:

Thank you. Thanks again.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

A special thanks to Andy Bates for his

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

time and insights. If you liked what you heard, please leave the

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

podcast a rating and share it with your network. Also

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

subscribe to the show so you don't miss any new episodes.

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

Thank you for listening, and I'll see you in the next

Dr. Dave Chatterjee:

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About the Podcast

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The Cybersecurity Readiness Podcast Series
with Dr. Dave Chatterjee

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Dave Chatterjee

Dr. Debabroto 'Dave' Chatterjee is tenured professor in the Management Information Systems (MIS) department, at the Terry College of Business, The University of Georgia (UGA). He is also a Visiting Scholar at Duke University, affiliated with the Master of Engineering in Cybersecurity program in the Pratt School of Engineering. An accomplished scholar and technology thought leader, Dr. Chatterjee’s interest and expertise lie in the various facets of information technology management – from technology sense-making to implementation and change management, data governance, internal controls, information security, and performance measurement. His work has been accepted and published in prestigious outlets such as The Wall Street Journal, MIT Sloan Management Review, California Management Review, Business Horizons, MIS Quarterly, and Journal of Management Information Systems. Dr. Chatterjee’s research has been sponsored by industry and cited over two thousand times. His book Cybersecurity Readiness: A Holistic and High-Performance Approach was published by SAGE Publishing in March 2021.