Episode 19
Making Cybersecurity Communication Effective
Cybersecurity communication should be simple, immersive, attractive, continuous, and multi-channel, says Marcin Ganclerz, a subject matter expert. He passionately argues for creating a 'culture of enablement and not fear' so employees can play a vital role in enhancing cybersecurity communication effectiveness. Marcin also shares several examples and best practices in support of his recommendations.
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Transcript
Welcome to the Cybersecurity Readiness Podcast
Introducer:Series with Dr. Dave Chatterjee. Dr. Chatterjee is the author of
Cybersecurity Readiness:A Holistic and High-Performance
Cybersecurity Readiness:Approach. He has been studying cybersecurity for over a decade,
Cybersecurity Readiness:authored and edited scholarly papers, delivered talks,
Cybersecurity Readiness:conducted webinars, consulted with companies, and served on a
Cybersecurity Readiness:cybersecurity SWAT team with Chief Information Security
Cybersecurity Readiness:officers. Dr. Chatterjee is an Associate Professor of
Cybersecurity Readiness:Management Information Systems at the Terry College of
Cybersecurity Readiness:Business, the University of Georgia and Visiting Professor
Cybersecurity Readiness:at Duke University's Pratt School of Engineering.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:Hello, everyone. I'm delighted to
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:welcome you to this episode of the Cybersecurity Readiness
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:Podcast Series. Today, I have the pleasure of talking with
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:Marcin Ganclerz, an expert in cybersecurity awareness and
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:training. Marcin, welcome. It's great to have you as a guest on
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:the show today. Thanks for making time to share your
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:thoughts and perspectives with listeners. To get the ball
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:rolling Marcin, how about share with listeners a bit about your
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:professional and cybersecurity journey.
Marcin Ganclerz:Hello, Dave, thank you so much for having me
Marcin Ganclerz:on. It's great to be to be here. My cybersecurity journey is
Marcin Ganclerz:quite interesting and unusual. Because I'm a former journalist.
Marcin Ganclerz:I worked at the Polish public television for eight years. And
Marcin Ganclerz:one day I had to prepare a TV material about phishing attack.
Marcin Ganclerz:It was about a man who lost all of his money, because cyber
Marcin Ganclerz:criminals broke into his bank account. It was a time when
Marcin Ganclerz:phishing attacks weren't so common in Poland. So as a
Marcin Ganclerz:journalist, I started searching for information about phishing
Marcin Ganclerz:attack, how they looks like, what are the consequences of the
Marcin Ganclerz:attack, what are the techniques, I had to record some experts.
Marcin Ganclerz:And that's how I found cybersecurity is very
Marcin Ganclerz:interesting. And after I had finished this material, I
Marcin Ganclerz:started reading about cybersecurity, following some
Marcin Ganclerz:experts. And that's how I became cybersecurity passionate. A few
Marcin Ganclerz:a few years later, I saw that the biggest bank in Poland was
Marcin Ganclerz:searching for a person responsible for building
Marcin Ganclerz:cybersecurity program for clients and employees. And I
Marcin Ganclerz:came to conclusion that it's the best time for me to dive into
Marcin Ganclerz:this cybersecurity world. I got this job. And that's how I be
Marcin Ganclerz:became a Cybersecurity Awareness expert.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:Fantastic, what a great, great story.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:Marcin, you have a lot of experience a lot of interesting
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:stories probably to share with the listeners. How about we
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:start with some challenges and hurdles that are associated with
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:effective cybersecurity communication.
Marcin Ganclerz:No problem. I think one of the biggest problem
Marcin Ganclerz:is that, for many organization, cybersecurity is not a priority.
Marcin Ganclerz:So they prefer to invest in some security tools, software,
Marcin Ganclerz:rather, rather than invest in this human operating system.
Marcin Ganclerz:They don't want to spend the money for educating employees. I
Marcin Ganclerz:like this meme. Probably, you know, it and our listeners also,
Marcin Ganclerz:security budget before and after the breach. I think it's the
Marcin Ganclerz:same with education. Yeah. So if you don't have if it's not a
Marcin Ganclerz:priority for the organization, it's hard to educate employees.
Marcin Ganclerz:They don't see this communication. Another thing is
Marcin Ganclerz:there's that huge gap on the market. I mean, there is no a
Marcin Ganclerz:lot of there aren't a lot of technical, no, not technical,
Marcin Ganclerz:experts who are specialized in cybersecurity awareness. Usually
Marcin Ganclerz:in the organization, the person who is responsible for educating
Marcin Ganclerz:employees and for cybersecurity awareness is information
Marcin Ganclerz:security specialists or technical experts with the
Marcin Ganclerz:technical knowledge And I think the problem with them is that
Marcin Ganclerz:they don't know how to communicate. The technical
Marcin Ganclerz:experts suffer from curse of knowledge. So for them,
Marcin Ganclerz:everything is simple. I can tell you a great example. Once I had
Marcin Ganclerz:to write an article about passwords, and when I was
Marcin Ganclerz:writing this article, one of the director came to me and said,
Marcin Ganclerz:Hey, you should write about passwords entropy. And I look at
Marcin Ganclerz:him and ask, how many people know what the entropy is? And
Marcin Ganclerz:the answer was silence. Because it's a great example how most of
Marcin Ganclerz:technical experts think; for him, it was obvious what is
Marcin Ganclerz:entropy? For most of the users, cyber, cyber security is scary,
Marcin Ganclerz:confusing, intimidating, they don't understand it. Next
Marcin Ganclerz:example. When we say employees about how to create password, we
Marcin Ganclerz:will say them hey, it should have at least 12 characters,
Marcin Ganclerz:uppercase, lowercase, special characters, numbers, and you
Marcin Ganclerz:should change it every 90 days. And what's more, you cannot have
Marcin Ganclerz:the same password on other portal or services. Is it
Marcin Ganclerz:simple? No, for the users, it's really hard to do it. I prefer
Marcin Ganclerz:to say, say them hey use Password Manager.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:And,
Marcin Ganclerz:and the last problem, I think, is budget. So
Marcin Ganclerz:if you want to create attractive, immersive
Marcin Ganclerz:communication, you need money. If you want to prepare elearning
Marcin Ganclerz:or webinar for your employees, attractive video games, and so
Marcin Ganclerz:on, you need money. If you don't have money, it's hard to do
Marcin Ganclerz:something constructive. It's possible, but it's more
Marcin Ganclerz:difficult. So I think that these are the most important
Marcin Ganclerz:challenges for building effective communication
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:makes a lot of sense. I'm glad you touched
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:upon a very key area. The challenge lies in finding those
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:people who know enough about the phenomenon, have reasonable
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:technical awareness and have the ability to communicate in plain
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:and simple language. As you know, the cybersecurity
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:phenomenon is very complicated. With so many terms,
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:terminologies, and jargons. The best thing that could happen to
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:enhancing awareness is to try and simplify the message. One of
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:the primary reasons for doing this podcast Marcin is to make
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:the cybersecurity conversation more mainstream. And I'm so glad
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:that you have joined me in this discussion. So moving along,
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:what would you consider to be the key elements or attributes
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:of effective cyber communication?
Marcin Ganclerz:I think one of the most important thing is to
Marcin Ganclerz:show people why this is so important. It's a great TED Talk
Marcin Ganclerz:by Simon Sinek 'Start with Why.' And we should show employees,
Marcin Ganclerz:show users, why cybersecurity is so important for them. And I
Marcin Ganclerz:think the best way to do it is to show them that it applies to
Marcin Ganclerz:their personal life. So, here and there, I mean here at your
Marcin Ganclerz:work and there at your home, threats are the same
Marcin Ganclerz:cybercriminals don't look if it's your personal or business
Marcin Ganclerz:email, they have they have all of these addresses and send the
Marcin Ganclerz:campaign to all of all their addresses they they have. So we
Marcin Ganclerz:should persuade employees that everything you learn at your
Marcin Ganclerz:work will help you to be safer at your personal life. You can a
Marcin Ganclerz:job and at home. We shopping banking online, we have mobile
Marcin Ganclerz:devices. But at home you don't have a whole cybersecurity
Marcin Ganclerz:security department that can help you to protect against this
Marcin Ganclerz:kind of threat. So we have to arm employees with tools and the
Marcin Ganclerz:best tool is knowledge, knowledge, how the attack looks
Marcin Ganclerz:like, how to recognize them and how to react on them. So by
Marcin Ganclerz:doing it, we creating them as we will make them as a great
Marcin Ganclerz:cybersecurity agents who can help protect our company. And
Marcin Ganclerz:they will be safer, safer at home. The next thing is that
Marcin Ganclerz:cyber security communication should be simple, immersive,
Marcin Ganclerz:attractive, permanent, multi channel, we cannot only release
Marcin Ganclerz:once only for new employees, and you cybersecurity training. And
Marcin Ganclerz:of course, we will be comply with some regulations. But it
Marcin Ganclerz:won't change anything. If we do a training once for a few years,
Marcin Ganclerz:it won't change anything. So we have to send them a message
Marcin Ganclerz:every month every week in different channels. Because
Marcin Ganclerz:there are a lot of channels in the organization. Of course,
Marcin Ganclerz:every every cybersecurity communication program and
Marcin Ganclerz:awareness program should be adjusted to the organization,
Marcin Ganclerz:it's easier to communicate in a small company, when you have 20
Marcin Ganclerz:employees, and they are all on the same floor. It's much harder
Marcin Ganclerz:to do it in a global organization, when you have when
Marcin Ganclerz:you have to have security changes and so on. So, um, but I
Marcin Ganclerz:want to give you an example, for when we, when we write an
Marcin Ganclerz:article, what is the most important part of this headline?
Marcin Ganclerz:If headline is not attractive, people won't read it. So how,
Marcin Ganclerz:how a lot of people write articles, and headlines. For
Marcin Ganclerz:example, don't click on a suspicious link. Is it catchy,
Marcin Ganclerz:it's not, probably most of the people won't read it. Instead of
Marcin Ganclerz:that you can write 'One Click Is Enough To Allow Someone To Steal
Marcin Ganclerz:Your Money.' And this headline will encourage people to go
Marcin Ganclerz:deeper to this article, to click on it and read more about cyber
Marcin Ganclerz:security. What else, we should also tell people the story, not
Marcin Ganclerz:only the information about cybersecurity, we should show
Marcin Ganclerz:them the whole context. So why cyber criminals do it, how they
Marcin Ganclerz:do it, and what can be the consequences of the attack. If
Marcin Ganclerz:you have
Marcin Ganclerz:a template and you are limited to the words, it's hard to
Marcin Ganclerz:explain cybersecurity in 200 300 words. Because sometimes in your
Marcin Ganclerz:organization, communication looks like that. So you have to
Marcin Ganclerz:tell people the story. And you also have to show them how the
Marcin Ganclerz:attacks looks like. You can record a video of the example of
Marcin Ganclerz:the attack for what will happen after connecting malicious USB
Marcin Ganclerz:device to your laptop. If you don't have technical experts who
Marcin Ganclerz:can do it for you, you can also buy an external vendor for you.
Marcin Ganclerz:But as I mentioned before, you have to have a budget to do it.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:In fact, I want to re emphasize a statement
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:you made, which is so compelling. You said the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:communication should be attractive, should be immersive
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:and should be simple. I couldn't agree with you more. You have to
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:get people to recognize why they need to be aware of different
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:types of attacks, the consequences, and how does that
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:relate to the work they do, the consequences, because at the end
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:of the day, you know, everybody is not thinking about
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:cybersecurity effectiveness, like some are. So the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:recognition that we need to make it more relatable cannot be
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:overemphasized. And that brings up another point that you made.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:And I'm going to couch it a little differently. What we
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:can't have is a one-size-fit-all approach. Neither can we have
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:the check-the-box approach. Okay, there was a compliance
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:requirement. You mentioned the word template, here is the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:template let's send it out to everybody. Communication is
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:complete. That's not well done. At the end of the day, I think
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:it's all about how, how genuine is the intent to communicate
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:effectively, and what mechanisms are in place to assess whether
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:the recipient has really received your message. And once
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:again, talking about receiving the message, being relatable,
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:what that brings to mind is the importance of making sure the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:message is customized, making sure the message is targeted,
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:making sure the message is personalized. Let's say I am
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:performing a certain role in an organization. If you would align
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:the security posture, security measures, the security best
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:practices that I need to be conscious of while I perform the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:role, that would be so much more relatable, I'll be able to
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:assimilate that assimilate that so much better than if I'm
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:looking at a one page long email with all kinds of do's and
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:don'ts. And like you said, you know, those kinds of emails we
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:all receive in organizations, we tend to look over them. Because
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:often the titles are not catchy, the message is too long. And I
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:have a natural tendency to look at an email and the first
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:question I asked myself, is it for me? Or is it for the masses.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:If it's for the masses, that gets a lower priority. So that
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:level of consciousness, that recognition is important, and
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:yes, it does require organizations to go the extra
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:distance. You talked about budget, absolutely. And anything
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:else that needs to be done, whether it's from a governance
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:standpoint, from a procedural standpoint, those steps have to
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:be taken. Because we cannot emphasize enough the importance
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:of effective communication. So let's go along this direction
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:and talk about some best practices or guiding principles
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:that you see out there.
Marcin Ganclerz:First of all, as you mentioned, we should
Marcin Ganclerz:divide, and we should think, what groups do we have within
Marcin Ganclerz:the organization and tailor the training for them. It's hard to
Marcin Ganclerz:prepare a different communication for different
Marcin Ganclerz:groups, in my opinion, it's better to prepare for them
Marcin Ganclerz:targeted training. I have delivered dozens of this kind of
Marcin Ganclerz:training at my previous job at PKO Bank Polski, the biggest
Marcin Ganclerz:bank in Poland. So, for example, when
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:employees,
Marcin Ganclerz:at the branch centers, have different needs
Marcin Ganclerz:that employees both working on the call center, or assistance
Marcin Ganclerz:of the directors or the executive. So the best way I
Marcin Ganclerz:think, is to prepare an online training for them. Of course, as
Marcin Ganclerz:I mentioned, it's easier in a smaller organization, it's hard
Marcin Ganclerz:to solve a big organization who has 200,000 employees, but it's
Marcin Ganclerz:possible. I think the best way to educate employees is contact
Marcin Ganclerz:one on one even on Zoom or other platform like teams and and so
Marcin Ganclerz:on, because you have an hour more than hour, I think an hour
Marcin Ganclerz:it's enough to explain them. Why this is so important. Show them
Marcin Ganclerz:what are the most important rules within an organization.
Marcin Ganclerz:For example, at PKO Bank we created 10 cybersecurity rules
Marcin Ganclerz:for employees and clients. And when you have these kind of
Marcin Ganclerz:rules, it's easier to promote them and basing on them and
Marcin Ganclerz:educate your your employees. What's more, what is important
Marcin Ganclerz:Well, I think we should concentrate on building the
Marcin Ganclerz:human firewall. So show employees that they are
Marcin Ganclerz:important part of the cybersecurity system, and if
Marcin Ganclerz:they have distilled this knowledge, they will help us
Marcin Ganclerz:protect our organization. I think the problem is that many
Marcin Ganclerz:organization, many companies tend to treat employees as risks
Marcin Ganclerz:as the weakest link. And they use all of this terminology,
Marcin Ganclerz:that suggests they don't actually have the power to be a
Marcin Ganclerz:strong security agent. When we want to protect our
Marcin Ganclerz:organization, we don't need the weakest link, we need strong
Marcin Ganclerz:link. And when we see people as a strong link, they act as a
Marcin Ganclerz:strong link. When you use this terminology, risk, the weakest
Marcin Ganclerz:link, it's this pep cuts, I mean, problem exists between
Marcin Ganclerz:keyboard and chair. So this is how most technical experts see
Marcin Ganclerz:the role of the users, they that they are not the weakest link,
Marcin Ganclerz:that they are the primary attack vector. They can be valuable
Marcin Ganclerz:assets for the organization, but we have to educate them, train
Marcin Ganclerz:them, and reward them. I heard a lot of stories when people
Marcin Ganclerz:reported a phishing email. And they don't even receive an email
Marcin Ganclerz:a feedback, if it's was a phishing or not a phishing. So
Marcin Ganclerz:if you want to build the great culture in your organization,
Marcin Ganclerz:you have to reward your employees, show them that they
Marcin Ganclerz:are important. Of course, of course, there are many ways to
Marcin Ganclerz:do it, and we can spend hours talking about it. We don't have
Marcin Ganclerz:so much time, but um, you should think and concentrate and show
Marcin Ganclerz:them every communication, prepare in videos, podcasts,
Marcin Ganclerz:webinars, on your internet, show them why the role is so
Marcin Ganclerz:important. You have elearning show them the role in this
Marcin Ganclerz:elearning you have articles, show them in articles. I think I
Marcin Ganclerz:think it's, it's important, because when you have this
Marcin Ganclerz:culture of fear, so when employees don't want to report
Marcin Ganclerz:any suspicious email, they are afraid of making mistakes,
Marcin Ganclerz:because you blame them for the mistake. They make mistakes,
Marcin Ganclerz:they are humans, we all make mistakes. And if they don't
Marcin Ganclerz:understand cybersecurity, concentrate on educating them,
Marcin Ganclerz:show them why this is so important that it's not so
Marcin Ganclerz:difficult. But you have to do it in a simple and understandable
Marcin Ganclerz:way. When you use a lot of fancy words, and acronyms, they don't
Marcin Ganclerz:understand, they won't understand it.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:I'd love to jump in here. Because you're
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:saying stuff that's getting me all excited and passionate. And
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:the one thing I'd like to say here is don't let jargons be the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:great digital divide. Don't let terms terminologies, acronyms
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:come in the way of connecting the entire organization and
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:getting them on board. And getting them on the same page,
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:when it comes to understanding the challenges and how to deal
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:with them. You put it so well when you said employees or
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:people treat them as the strongest link. There's a
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:difference between being the biggest target and being the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:strongest link. And that distinction needs to be made.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:And I'm sure you will agree from your life experiences. And I've
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:seen enough to conclude that the more you have confidence in
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:people, the more you're willing to trust them, the more you're
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:willing to empower them with training, they will rise to the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:occasion. You know, in one of my earlier podcasts, I had the CEO
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:of a major corporation make a very telling comment. He said,
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:Dave, people come to work because they want to make a
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:difference. They come to work because they would like to do
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:something great. And that's the kind of mindset that
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:organizations need to have. That's the kind of mindset that
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:would create and sustain what I call in my book, the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:High-Performance Information Security Culture. To be able to
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:create and sustain that culture, people continue to be the most
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:important factor. How how you motivate them, how you empower
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:them, that's the challenge. But it's a great challenge to have.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:And we have enough tools, enough guidelines to make those things
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:happen. The intent needs to be there, the recognition needs to
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:be there. And I'm so glad that you're sharing these wonderful
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:examples with listeners to enhance that level of awareness.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:So Marcin, while we were having our prep discussion, you said
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:something very interesting that stayed with me. You said, the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:education about cybersecurity should be permanent. Tell us a
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:little more about that. What,
Marcin Ganclerz:why it should be permanent, because threats
Marcin Ganclerz:are changing every day. And that is one one thing. So three years
Marcin Ganclerz:ago, we have had different threats. And next years,
Marcin Ganclerz:probably we will have different. So it's one thing and the other
Marcin Ganclerz:is that when you as I mentioned before, when you release your
Marcin Ganclerz:training, obbligatory training only for new employees, and they
Marcin Ganclerz:completed it. The education is not finished. You have to
Marcin Ganclerz:continue reinforce your education reinforce this role in
Marcin Ganclerz:different channels in the organization. We learn a whole
Marcin Ganclerz:life, it's the same of cybersecurity. If you only
Marcin Ganclerz:release your one training, and you think it's not enough, it
Marcin Ganclerz:isn't enough. You have to have different tools, different
Marcin Ganclerz:actions, influence people, what is the most important in
Marcin Ganclerz:cybersecurity education, changing human behavior? If you
Marcin Ganclerz:click on the link, what we have to do is to change this this
Marcin Ganclerz:behavior, and how can we do it? We need this BJ Fogg behavior
Marcin Ganclerz:model. And we need three things. Employees, users, should be
Marcin Ganclerz:motivated. They need to have ability, and prompt or trigger.
Marcin Ganclerz:And when we have these three elements at the same time, you
Marcin Ganclerz:can change human behavior, of course, so we have to motivate
Marcin Ganclerz:them, how? Show them why start to fly, why this is so important
Marcin Ganclerz:for you. Of course, we have to build the ability, or maybe they
Marcin Ganclerz:have this ability. And we need a prompt, a trigger. And this
Marcin Ganclerz:communication can be a trigger attractive video with a simple
Marcin Ganclerz:message for them. Video don't have to be very long, especially
Marcin Ganclerz:in social media, people usually concentrate on the first five,
Marcin Ganclerz:six seconds. So the most important information should be
Marcin Ganclerz:included in this first five, six seconds, or you cannot prepare
Marcin Ganclerz:10 Minutes video about cybersecurity. Let's do it in
Marcin Ganclerz:one minute. It's enough to insert them the more they're the
Marcin Ganclerz:most important information. You can create a newsletter for
Marcin Ganclerz:employees with the most important information and send
Marcin Ganclerz:them it once a month, once a week. Think about external
Marcin Ganclerz:experts invite someone to your company who can share the
Marcin Ganclerz:knowledge with your employees. And what's more, you need to do
Marcin Ganclerz:it you need the right people. That's why the trend on the
Marcin Ganclerz:market is that people companies are searching for people not
Marcin Ganclerz:with technical knowledge, but with communication public
Marcin Ganclerz:relation and marketing background. Because all you have
Marcin Ganclerz:to do is find a way to promote your program to promote the
Marcin Ganclerz:cybersecurity rules, how to do it, how to influence people, how
Marcin Ganclerz:to encourage them, how to change the behavior. And I think most
Marcin Ganclerz:technical experts don't know how to do it.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:You know, one of the best practices that I
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:came across in an organization is their approach of incremental
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:learning. Almost every day, an email goes out to the inboxes,
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:with one message with maybe one learning item. So their approach
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:is that we want the cybersecurity education and
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:training to be continuous, to be reinforced; instead of giving
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:them, you know, giving it to them all at once in huge chunks,
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:let's give it to them in small incremental amounts and make it
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:let's make it around the year, a daily activity. So then it's
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:it's becoming institutionalized. It's becoming part of the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:organizational DNA, the organizational best practices.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:Another point that you made, and I want to re emphasize that, and
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:it goes back to what we were talking about making the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:educational experience the training experience, as
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:immersive as hands on as possible. Bottom line, can we
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:make it fun? Can we make it interesting? whether it's by
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:showing little video clips, or whether it's by hosting some
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:workshops, where scenes are enacted, about the consequences
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:of what happens, or about how an employee or a set of employees
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:were able to save the company from a certain attack, sharing
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:those in the form of stories, but in a dramatic fashion, that
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:would get the attention of the people. In other words, one has
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:to get creative about how you want to communicate what you
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:want to communicate, some thought needs to go into it.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:Let's not let's get past the the template based approach that you
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:talked about, let's get creative. Every company has
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:probably a relatively unique culture, they have a better
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:understanding of what would go well with their employees. So
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:they should accordingly customize their communication,
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:as opposed to just hiring an expert from outside and having
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:them run the show nothing against experts. I respect
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:experts. And I'm sure experts bring a lot of experience
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:working across industries across firms. But an organization still
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:needs to have oversight still needs to make sure that they are
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:working in partnership with the expert to provide the training
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:that is appropriate for their people. So that's kind of the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:way I think we will make progress. Because, as you know,
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:effective communication is so critical, whether it's getting
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:employee buy in whether it's getting the buy in of the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:leadership, whether it's trying to convince people about not
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:doing something of not engaging in a certain act. Unless we have
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:a good way of getting the message across. We are unlikely
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:to achieve what you just said. The change in behavior.
Marcin Ganclerz:I can tell you interesting story, please one of
Marcin Ganclerz:the elearning program, I prepared my previous job. So
Marcin Ganclerz:when I came there, I realized that existing elearning was
Marcin Ganclerz:boring. It was 20 slides with a lot of information about
Marcin Ganclerz:policies, standards and so on, which you had to do, but it
Marcin Ganclerz:wasn't interesting. And my main idea was we have to change it.
Marcin Ganclerz:And we prepared a new elearning experts it's not a secret it was
Marcin Ganclerz:Paula Januszkiewicz, CEO of the CQURE. You can find about it on
Marcin Ganclerz:my LinkedIn profile. And we started from promoting this
Marcin Ganclerz:learning, show employees, hey, something new is coming. And we
Marcin Ganclerz:organized an event. We're involved to this one of the C
Marcin Ganclerz:level executives, because if you need this culture of enablement,
Marcin Ganclerz:it should start with the highest level in the organization.
Marcin Ganclerz:Because one of Robert Cialdini principles of persuasion is
Marcin Ganclerz:authority. So, if people, employees see that cybersecurity
Marcin Ganclerz:education, cybersecurity training is important for our
Marcin Ganclerz:CEO, board member, and so on, it should also be important for me
Marcin Ganclerz:imagine the situation, then you receive an email about mandatory
Marcin Ganclerz:training from corporate address, and you receive an email about
Marcin Ganclerz:mandatory training from one of the board member. Of course, if
Marcin Ganclerz:you receive an email from board member about mandatory training
Marcin Ganclerz:from agree you will do it the same day. And But coming back to
Marcin Ganclerz:the story, so we organized an event. During this event, we
Marcin Ganclerz:told employees what will be in your in this eLearning program,
Marcin Ganclerz:when we are going to launch it. And I can tell when it was a
Marcin Ganclerz:huge program. So we divided this program, to 10 different
Marcin Ganclerz:modules. And I can tell you that after we released this first
Marcin Ganclerz:module, and the second module, I received a lot of emails from
Marcin Ganclerz:employees with the information that it was the best elearning
Marcin Ganclerz:they have ever seen. Because we show them why, we show them how
Marcin Ganclerz:the attacks look like what are the consequences of the attack.
Marcin Ganclerz:And this eLearning program was immersive, because you don't
Marcin Ganclerz:people prefer watch than read. So we concentrated on videos
Marcin Ganclerz:materials, so you could sit and watch something interesting
Marcin Ganclerz:about cybersecurity. And, and yes, I think it's it's important
Marcin Ganclerz:to start from this interesting elearning program, and show them
Marcin Ganclerz:why this is so important for them. And what's more, after I
Marcin Ganclerz:have received all these emails, I came to idea that let's use
Marcin Ganclerz:it, and I asked this employees, Hey, can I prepare a video with
Marcin Ganclerz:you? So you can say What's your opinion about this eLearning
Marcin Ganclerz:because we want to promote this learning within their
Marcin Ganclerz:organization and they agreed. So I recorded them. I don't I
Marcin Ganclerz:didn't need the budget. Because I did it on Teams. I recorded a
Marcin Ganclerz:video with them, with four employees. So I also used the
Marcin Ganclerz:opinion to build the cybersecurity communication.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:That's an excellent point. In fact, you
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:made several you share some excellent examples. One thing
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:that comes to mind relating to what you just said, if you can
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:build that peer group, in fact, this particular educational
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:institution, they have created what they called the Champions
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:Network. The Champions network comprises of folks who are
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:willing to champion the cause of cybersecurity. So I'm thinking
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:an organization can create a Champions Network, people who
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:will focus on effective Cybersecurity Communications.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:And each of these folks serve as influencers. They serve as a hub
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:who can promote the message more effectively to their group. You
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:mentioned the challenges of achieving these effective
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:communication goals in large organizations. And I believe by
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:creating networks of people, of trained people, people who are
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:passionate, people who are influencers, who have the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:ability to be very compelling. Use these networks to spread the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:word. So it doesn't have to be like a message coming from the
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:top being sent to everybody. I think the approach should be
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:more distributed. And that's how it will take on a life of its
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:own, it will gather momentum, and then you will see a
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:groundswell. You will see a bottom up approach where
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:everybody is a conduit is a source of how to effectively
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:communicate or share something relating to good cyber practice.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:And that's the way I believe the overall communication
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:effectiveness can be achieved, which in turn, could lead to
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:creating a high performance information security culture.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:Well, Marcin, this discussion is so interesting. I want to keep
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:going. However, we have some time constraints. So I'd like to
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:ask you to start wrapping this up for us by sharing some key
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:messages, some final thoughts, whatever you'd like to share
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:with the listeners
Marcin Ganclerz:Concentrate on building culture of enablement
Marcin Ganclerz:in your organization, rather than culture of fear, because
Marcin Ganclerz:everything starts from culture in the organization. When you
Marcin Ganclerz:have this culture of enablement, people, people love to feel
Marcin Ganclerz:valued. They want to be the important part of cybersecurity
Marcin Ganclerz:system. If you have the right culture, they will feel
Marcin Ganclerz:responsible for cybersecurity, they will feel as a vital part
Marcin Ganclerz:of the cybersecurity system and they can be your really valuable
Marcin Ganclerz:asset. But remember, you have to educate them, train them and
Marcin Ganclerz:reward them, not blame them. Because if you have this culture
Marcin Ganclerz:of fear, if you blame your employees for mistakes, they
Marcin Ganclerz:won't be an important part of your cybersecurity system. Yes,
Marcin Ganclerz:they will really be a risk. All you need in the in your
Marcin Ganclerz:organization is make your employees the strong link. The
Marcin Ganclerz:important part of your organization are your employees
Marcin Ganclerz:with tool and the main tool is knowledge knowledge, how to
Marcin Ganclerz:react, how to react to the attack, how to recognize them.
Marcin Ganclerz:And remember that cybersecurity, communication education should
Marcin Ganclerz:be permanent, should be simple, and understandable. Multichannel
Marcin Ganclerz:distinctive. Remember that you have to change human behavior.
Marcin Ganclerz:Without changing human behavior, they won't be great agents. If
Marcin Ganclerz:they make mistake, find a way how to change it. And I think
Marcin Ganclerz:that's, that's the most important part and start with
Marcin Ganclerz:why show them why this is so important. And the best way to
Marcin Ganclerz:do it is how cybersecurity applies to the personal life.
Marcin Ganclerz:Because attacks here and there are the same but at home you
Marcin Ganclerz:don't have cybersecurity experts, technical experts, tool
Marcin Ganclerz:and expensive software that can help you protecting yourself and
Marcin Ganclerz:and your your family and find a way to involve in your program.
Marcin Ganclerz:C level executives show employees that cybersecurity is
Marcin Ganclerz:important for all the people within the organization not only
Marcin Ganclerz:for employees and prepare an attractive, immersive
Marcin Ganclerz:communications communication awareness program in different
Marcin Ganclerz:channels in the organization. You have webinars, podcasts,
Marcin Ganclerz:videos, emails, newsletters, elearning a lot. You can create
Marcin Ganclerz:a Cybersecurity Day, a Cybersecurity Awareness Month,
Marcin Ganclerz:you can prepare for them targeted training, online
Marcin Ganclerz:training. You have a lot of different tools which you can
Marcin Ganclerz:use to build this this cybersecurity awareness. And
Marcin Ganclerz:don't afraid to hire someone with communication, marketing or
Marcin Ganclerz:public relations experience, because it's easier for a person
Marcin Ganclerz:like me to learn about cyber cybersecurity, rather, rather
Marcin Ganclerz:rather than for technical experts to learn communication
Marcin Ganclerz:skills.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:Well, thank you so much, Marcin. That was
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:very, very informative. I'd like to wrap it up as well, reminding
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:our listeners the significance of customized, targeted,
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:personalized communication. Recognizing that a one-size-fit-
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:all approach doesn't work. There needs to be a genuine intent to
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:communicate effectively, and suitable assessment mechanisms
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:should be in place to assess communication performance. With
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:that we conclude our discussion for today. Thank you again.
Marcin Ganclerz:Thank you so much.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:A special thanks to Marcin Ganclerz for
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:his time and insights. If you liked what you heard, please
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:leave the podcast a rating and share it with your network. Also
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:subscribe to the show so you don't miss any new episodes.
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:Thank you for listening, and I'll see you in the next
Dr. Dave Chatterjee:episode.
Introducer:The information contained in this podcast is for
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